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-   -   Guitar chord diagrams in Notation products (http://www.notation.com/vb-forum/showthread.php?t=1628)

Mark Walsen (markwa) 10-01-2008 08:26 PM

I'm considering adding a g
 
I'm considering adding a guitar chord diagram feature in Notation Composer and Musician in a release as early as verison 2.6. A central portion of that feature is that you would type in a chord name, such as Gm7, and the program would show you the best alternative fingerings, and you'd choose one.

Do you have experience using a "chord finder" option in other notation programs, or on the web, or in print? If so, please let me know your evaluation of them.

I'm approaching third parties about licensing their chord database, and would like to know which ones are good.

Cheers
-- Mark

Adrian Allan (adrianallan) 10-02-2008 07:29 AM

Hello Mark, My advice to yo
 
Hello Mark,

My advice to you (as a guitarist) would be this:

Most songbooks have a chord above the words, and many a guitar chord box. What they tend to do is choose the most simple version of the chord in question - that is, one played on the first three frets. Notation composer could have a feature that added these chords. The feature could be called "suggest chord diagram", and a chord diagram would then be added above the changes in harmony.

There is no way that you could predict anything other than the most simple version of the chord. This is because other chord voicings depend on the context and style of the music. For example, as G7 for a folk song would be in open position on the first frets and a G7 in rock would be closed on the third fret, to stop the notes ringing on.

So aside from the default "suggest chord diagram", another click could link you to list of 5 or 6 alternatives that could be clicked on. I don't think you need to approach a third party, as any chord book would have these in it. By clicking on the alternative, the chosen chord would replace the simple one.

Finally, you would need to have a "custom chord diagram" option, where the composer would bring up a blank chord box, and insert dots to show where he wanted the fingers to go. This is if he was not happy with the simple chords, and the alternative suggestions were not to his liking either.

Hope this helps

Adrian

David Jacklin (dj) 10-02-2008 12:15 PM

Hi, Mark: I'd agree wit
 
Hi, Mark:

I'd agree with Adrian here. There are just too many alternatives to have a complete database. It's like tablature programs that never seem to come up with useable tabs from a guitar transcription.

Basic chords are more or less "public domain", so, other than the convenience of having the database readily available, I don't know that you'd have to license something.

I came across a need for just this feature this week, actually.

David

Mark Walsen (markwa) 10-02-2008 07:53 PM

Hello Adrian and David, Yea
 
Hello Adrian and David,

Yeah, I guess chord fingerings are public domain. But, still, I'm not going to outright manually copy all of the chord fingerings from some chord book or web site or other notation program. For one thing, that would be too tedious.

The developer of another notation app offered to give me his chord database. That is really generous. I could start with his chord database and then supplement it with other sources. What other chord dictionaries do you find to be especially good?

I'm thinking that maybe this chord database would be "community based". Guitarists using Notation Composer could update their local copy of the chord database with their preferred fingerings. They would electronically submit their chord database to me, where "votes" would be take for preferred fingerings. The chord database would gradually improve with such input from guitarists.

Perhaps the chord database would have categories for some styles of music, where different fingerings are preferred.

Would the above be totally over-engineered? If the above were in place, would you take the trouble to customize your own chord dictionary, and further, would you take the trouble to submit it electronically so that I could collect your votes?

Regarding MIDI-to-tab transcription, I'd really like to pull this off. I'd need the help of some good guitarists to design the rules for evaluating good versus bad fingerings through passages of melody notes and/or chords. It seems quite feasible.

Cheers
-- Mark

Adrian Allan (adrianallan) 10-02-2008 08:55 PM

Hi Mark The idea of a user-
 
Hi Mark

The idea of a user-inputed database is very good. However, I'm not too sure about the idea of voting for different fingerings. Whether one chord is more suitable than another is to do with context and style. One fingering is not "better" - but only better in a given context.

The context is to do with the chords before and after any given chord. You know from the piano that the most flowing chord sequences depend on minimum movement, as opposed to all being in root position and jumping around the keys.

The same is true for guitar. If you play a chord of C around fret 3, and the next chord is A, you would aim to find the chord around the same fret, or maybe a fret lower or higher.

You wouldn't want to jump to the tenth fret, as the musical flow is broken. However, there is nothing intrinsically better or worse about an A chord on fret 10 - it is still the notes A C# E, but is just somewhere else on the guitar.

In the future an intelligent program may be able to voice the whole of a piece with regard to minimum movement (which is a similar principle to good voice leading), but really that's not at stake here. There is no such thing as a good or bad voicing or fingering, but whatever is best for each individual context.

As regards to the database, I'm not too sure that separating the chords into style categories would necessarily work. Although folk people do TEND to play a G chord open, for example, they do sometimes play it closed, and to be honest, a database based on style would be a bit too arbitrary for that reason.

All I would want is this sort of database:

A (all the chord shapes of A submittted)
A add 2 (A add 9) (all the chord shapes..)
A sus 4
A diminshed
A augmented
A 6
A 7
A 9
A 11
A 13

Then all the same for B, etc, etc. That would satisfy 99% of users.


What should be remembered is that chord diagrams are not just used for chords per se, but also to suggest fingerings at tricky parts in a piece of music.

So having these chord boxes as fingering guides would also be a key feature: when there's not a chord as such, but a tricky bit of fingering that needs visually explaining.

So it would be good to be able to create a chord box at will and place your own dots on it to explain fingering, even when if music doesn't need chordal accompaniment.

Mark Walsen (markwa) 10-02-2008 11:04 PM

Hello Adrian, Thanks for th
 
Hello Adrian,

Thanks for that good input.

Yes, for sure, the chord diagram feature will support user editing of the diagram.

That the "right" fingering depends on context make complete sense. All along I was aware that this contextual problem was the essence of doing good MIDI-to-tab transcription. However, it didn't really sink in with me that determining the "right" chord diagram is pretty much the same problem as doing good MIDI-to-tab transcription. I guess that is because I have seen notation apps for many years taking the other approach of offering the user the most common chord diagram, with an option to choose alternative chord diagrams. The approach of these other apps is more practical than trying to deduce what the best chord diagram is for the context. That's the approach I'll take initially.

Later I'll tackle MIDI-to-tabs. Maybe deriving from that MIDI-to-tabs effort will be some sort of tool that might suggest to the user good sequences of chord fingerings.

Thanks again for your thoughts about this.

Cheers
-- Mark

Ricardo 07-22-2009 03:16 PM

Re: I'm considering adding a g
 
Hello Mark!
It would be great if you add Guitar Chord Diagrams.

Jellyall 12-13-2009 01:16 PM

Re: Guitar chord diagrams in Notation products
 
Hi Mark,

My first post, I've just (yesterday) purchased this ace software.
Guitar chord diagrams would make it even better for us guitarists :)

Any update on adding them?

Thanks.

djimtio 12-13-2009 02:44 PM

Re: Guitar chord diagrams in Notation products
 
Hi Mark
Just a belated two (euro) cents into the guitarchords and Midi-to-Tab feature.
Great idea.For the moment being I am using GP5 (Guitar Pro) with Composer/ virtual cable for the tabs.
I hope you could still find some time since being a musician ( again ) now.
Regards

Djim

Sherry C 12-14-2009 02:20 AM

Re: Guitar chord diagrams in Notation products
 
Howdy guys,

Guitar chord diagrams are in the pipeline, but I'd be lying if I gave you a firm date for that happening. I'm not sure exactly when it will happen, but it is in the works.

ttfn,
Sherry

djimtio 12-14-2009 12:21 PM

Re: Guitar chord diagrams in Notation products
 
Hi Sherry
No need to hurry,there are still 11 days left before X-mas ;) .............
so take it eeeeeasy !
Regards

Djim

Jellyall 12-19-2009 01:27 PM

Re: Guitar chord diagrams in Notation products
 
Thanks for the reply Sherry.
Please keep us updated.
:-)

Steelpicker999 05-07-2010 02:22 PM

Re: Guitar chord diagrams in Notation products
 
Hi Mark,

Is it possible to go one ( well two actually) step(s) further with this and have the following:

1. A "preview" button which will actually Play the selected chord ? voicing to you to aid selection of the right sounding voicing.

2. I would like to then be able to "automatically" place that chosen chord / voicing on the staff as notation just leaving me to sort out the rhythm.

I have had recent need to do this while making a score with a rhythm guitar part. Albeit just as a "demo" for my own benefit so that I can hear roughly what the final result will be - I get a live rhythm guitarist to record those tracks for me on the final recording.

regards

Chris

PS its the same Chris that was floating around in the very first Beta testing for the first release - I've just had to channel my energy into other thiings for a while. Good to be backthough.

ab10 06-27-2010 03:50 PM

Re: Guitar chord diagrams in Notation products
 
Just to add to the requests that simple guitar fret diagrams which can be printed out above the melody line are added as an option to this great program.

Sherry C 06-27-2010 08:31 PM

Re: Guitar chord diagrams in Notation products
 
Hi,

Yes, guitar chord diagrams on the wish list for guitarists.

ttfn,
Sherry


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