Markbs coming out

Hi Sherry,

Ok, I'll add my annotations to the score. I might do that after I add the metronomeless support-- which I shouldn't be spending time on before the version 1.1 release, but I might do just for my own fun, if I can do it in 10 hours or so.

I must confess that I was also surprised when I saw tempo changes in the tempo graph. This might have happened when I was experimenting with the "Identify Beats" feature in Mark of the Unicorn's FreeStyle, which didn't work for me. Perhaps I accidentally resaved the MIDI file after FreeStyle had changed the tempo map. The performance timing is still the same, though. The unsteady rhythm was my performance, not the fault of FreeStyle or Composer.

Yes, Robert Ward was the chancellor of the North Carolina School of Arts for many years, where I studied for a couple of years as a lark, while I was starting my career in programming. He used to call me "Dr. Jeckle and Mr. Hyde", to suggest my schizophrenic life, half amongst free-spirted artists at the School of Arts, and the other half as a software "engineer" (from his perspective) writing Wake Forest University's first registration system. He didn't realize that musicians and programmers are pretty much alike.

I really enjoyed working with Dr. Ward. He was practical, down-to-earth, real, and honest about music. He's still writing operas. A composer student friend, Ernest Ferreri, who studied with Dr. Ward at the same time I did, still is Dr. Ward's copyist, using Finale. Ernie writes some pretty cool music in various styles, such as neo-Romantic and funk.

Cheers
-- Mark

Mark,
Thanks for pointing me in this direction. I enjoyed listening to your improvisation/composition. It did indeed point me toward Prokofieff, but only a very small part of Prokofieff ( his Classical symphony ). Actually, I made another association while listening, and that was turn-of-the-century French theater music ! ( maybe it's just me, could be, ... i'm often hanging out there by myself anyway )

If you are indeed using the Prokofieff model, one would expect the harmonic cadences to be a bit more pristine, .. more traditionally tonal chord structures without the added seconds and forths within the basic triads. This trick of Prokofieff's made the harmonic phrase cadence really noticable.

I think some more structured rhythmic germ motive changes ( or variations ) might add interest, while at the same time give structure to the piece. The rhythmic gesture changes at bar 110, and another at bar 128 added interest and helped to move the composition along. Having to wait until then seemed to me a bit long before introducing rhythmic interest.

Harmonically and tonaly it is quite interesting. Rhythmically, I feel a little more variety or variation might add more sparkle, and hold interest.

( when do you find time for this, ... you're supposed to be working 18 hours a day on the next version of Composer, and any spare time you have should be spent in helping the family with their house chores ).

Thanks again for the opportunity to listen and comment. I enjoyed it !


-- richard clements

Hi Richard,

I'm pleased that you accepted my invitation to you to visit the forum and comment on this particular improvisation. This is a treat for me to get some tips from a pro. (For others reading this, Richard Clements spent 30 years in Hollywood as a professional composer-conductor-arranger in television, film and records.)

I'm not familiar with turn of the 20th century French theater music, so I'll listen to some to pick up some ideas and techniques that might relate well with this piece.

I quite agree with the following comments, and had already had made these basic observations myself:<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

I think some more structured rhythmic germ motive changes ( or variations ) might add interest, while at the same time give structure to the piece. The rhythmic gesture changes at bar 110, and another at bar 128 added interest and helped to move the composition along. Having to wait until then seemed to me a bit long before introducing rhythmic interest.

Harmonically and tonaly it is quite interesting. Rhythmically, I feel a little more variety or variation might add more sparkle, and hold interest.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>Especially, I think the rhythmic pattern of the first phrase is repeated too much in this improvisation. My mind and fingers were working at full capacity to get this much done in real time in the improvisation. I usually find that my improvisations sacrifice some dimensions of music while I concentrate on others. For a large portion of this improvisation, I settled into a repetitious rhythmic pattern so I didn't have to think much about it, and so I was able to experiment with the chord progressions and the upward chromatic motive, which takes on some different forms throughout the improvisation.

I agree that the shift in rhythmic pace at measure 110 came much too late. The beginning rhythmic pattern had repeated far too often by then. Also, I think the idea that is more melodic, started at measure 110, could be stretched out more.

There seems to be enough material here to evolve this improvisation into a composition, but it won't be easy for me. I'll need to cut out dead stuff, but also probably add some more musical ideas, or if not, at least make more variations on the existing ideas. However, I probably will still leave the first rhythmic phrase as the principle unifying element of the piece.

This improvisation seems fairly pianistic to me, so I think it makes sense for me to make it a piano piece. However, I'm thinking that perhaps I should also try to orchestrate this piece as a means of developing orchestration skills. I would use GPO. What do you think? Do you hear orchestration in this piece? Or, do you hear it as suited really only for the piano?

Cheers
-- Mark

Hi Mark,
We'll never know if I would have thought "Hey, echoes of Prokofiev" if I hadn't read your comment before listening. I can think of some others that might have jumped to mind in places--Ravel, Poulenc, even Khachaturian. But I did think of Prokofiev, especially, for some reason the 3rd piano concerto, on first hearing it a couple of days ago. I also thought that there was material for a movement of a piano concerto here.

I obviously liked it, or I wouldn't have played it again, as I just did. I also read the rest of the posts, with which I generally agree--particularly regarding the long time until 110 arrives. But this time as I listened, the back of my mind was at work and hearing that concerto movement--the third or first. The basic idea in the first measures, quasi martial, is followed by a lot of developmental material which wouldn't have to all appear in sequence. The idea starting at measure 110, kind of a variation on the original idea, but with lyric possibilities, might be introduced earlier and returned to several times. I can even hear it ending the piece, after the buildup that starts around measure -- forgot now -- returning maestoso.

Well, anyhow, 1) I like it and 2) I think it would make a good piece for piano and orchestra.

all best,
mgj

Hello MGJ,

Thanks for the feedback on this piece. I'm not familiar with the music of Khachaturian; so I should check that out.

I've wondered whether this material might lend itself to the orchestra, but I hadn't thought of a piano concerto. Your suggestion is a good one, I think.

Other than some short MIDI orchestrations, I've never arranged for orchestra. Although most of my compositions are for piano, the texture of my compositions lies halfway between pianistic and orchestral. This particular piece is at the same time both more pianistic and more orchestral than most of my compositions, with a thicker texture. So, it might lend itself well to a piano concerto.

I have recently implemented a facility in Composer to convert metronomeless recordings into meter'ed scores, without loss of any of the original performance timings. I already have converted this AmericanProkofieff piece from metronomeless to reasonably accurate rhythms. I'll post the results in a few days. The score for this piece is a whole easier to follow with approximately correct rhythms.

I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on how this piece might be orchestrated as a concerto. For example, at the very start, would you begin with orchestra only, as is typical for most concertos? How would you arrange the different instruments?

Do you compose yourself? If so, is there a place on the 'net where we can hear what you've done? Or, please consider posting your MIDI or .not files here in this Share Your Music section of the forum.

Cheers
-- Mark

Hi Mark,
You have heard Khachaturian's ballet music; I discovered him 50 years ago through his piano concerto, which I still like.

I don't know as there is much difference between writing for orchestra and midi orchestration, as long as the midi sound is from a print out that could be used by live musicians. The main thing is to be aware of the range of "real" instruments, as well as the differences in sound. The most glaring difference is that midi wind player has to tongue every blasted note, and the brass players, too, though it's not so apparent there, as every note on a separate bow stroke isn't in the string ensemble 1.

The metronome is one thing I haven't figured out, in Composer. Turning it off doesn't affect playback and I don't enter notes from an external midi instrument, at least not now.

I could tell you some of the ideas I got while listening to your improvisation, but I'm not sure it would be of much benefit. I wouldn't worry about things such as beginning with an orchestral statement of the ideas. Beethoven starts his 4th with solo piano and the 3rd movement of his 5th begins with a piano flourish. What I thought, on second hearing, when it came to measure 110 went something like this: A brief statement of this theme would make a good beginning, with strings in upper octave 6, ppp and tremolo, playing sustained notes and the melody by i'm-not-sure--perhaps an English Horn.

Yes, I compose. I started just over 50 years ago, when I studied piano and composition with a jazz man classically trained. He showed a thing I wrote (which should have been called arpeggios in D minor, I suppose) to a concert pianist living in the area and she said it should go a long way toward getting me a scholarship. But I found that I had a thing about manuscript paper, which I still have. I could scarcely read what I'd written and no one else could even begin to make it out, so I spent hours trying to make three or four pages readable. I wrote only two pieces over the next many years. A piece for flute and cello for the wedding of a friend, which the groom's brother and I played on the rim of Canyon de Chelly one hot June morning, and when Bonnie Jo Hunt (the only Native American opera singer that I know of) asked if I would do something for her to use at a dedication, of a cathedral, I believe, I wrote an arrangement of "Simple Gifts" for soprano, piano and flute, of which I am now doing in an extended version for the same group and orchestra. But the labor on these pieces--getting them readable--convinced me of what I had known for years: that I could write nothing of symphonic proportions without having a number of years free to do nothing else. (My handwriting, even my signature, is virtually unreadable, too, I'm told.)

But when I wrote these two pieces, the computer was coming into its own--I had a Kaypro MSDOS machine at the time--and I began, then, to wonder if there would ever be software that would let you use the screen as blank manuscript paper. The computer guy at the college where I was teaching hadn't heard of any, and it wasn't until the mid 90's that I heard there were some being written. I didn't get on-line until 99, or so, and I used the computer for investment purposes and writing, mainly. I did some searches, but found something affordable only a couple of years ago. Since then, I've completed drafts of a couple of symphonies, a couple of piano concertos, and some things for piano and violin and piano. The big problem was getting a score printed. The program I found was quite powerful and easy to use when it came to writing and editing the music, but when I tried to extract the parts for a violin sonata, to send to the people who would perform it, I found there was no way to do it.

I have no .not files yet (I'm still experimenting with/learning how to use Composer). But it does a great job of reading in midi files, and I hope to use it to edit already-complete drafts as well as finish in-process things, and of course write new things. I will put a midi of something up on the Share Your Music site in the next few days.

Back to your piano/orchestra piece. If is to have more than one movement, might it not be a good idea to play around and see if additional musical ideas emerge, that would work with what you already have? Or maybe just plunge in and begin to work out a single movement and leave other decisions for later. In any case, I'll look forward to seeing/hearing what becomes of it.

all best,
mgj

Hello M.G.,

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

I wouldn't worry about things such as beginning with an orchestral statement of the ideas. Beethoven starts his 4th with solo piano and the 3rd movement of his 5th begins with a piano flourish. What I thought, on second hearing, when it came to measure 110 went something like this: A brief statement of this theme would make a good beginning, with strings in upper octave 6, ppp and tremolo, playing sustained notes and the melody by i'm-not-sure--perhaps an English Horn.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>I am inclined to do something opposite. Rather than start with a quiet beginning (such as the theme at measure 110), I might want to start with a brief, powerful orchestral statement, perhaps made out of new material, that would be weaved into the movement and probably reused at the end of the movement.

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Back to your piano/orchestra piece. If is to have more than one movement, might it not be a good idea to play around and see if additional musical ideas emerge, that would work with what you already have?<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>Exactly. I probably need to have a few more improv sessions to find some new material, and perhaps to expand on the quiet, somewhat melodic idea at measure 110.

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

But I found that I had a thing about manuscript paper, which I still have.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>I'm with you! My pencil notation isn't terrible, but certainly not readable by other performing musicians. The last time I did music calligraphy was about 20 years ago for a 32-page, 20+ minute piano piece (Concert Variations on a Hymn). I took me about 100 hours to do the pen calligraphy. The calligraphy is quite readable, but not pretty. There is some satisfaction in doing music calligraphy, but I'd much rather spend 100 hours writing music... or music software... than doing calligraphy.

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

The metronome is one thing I haven't figured out, in Composer. Turning it off doesn't affect playback and I don't enter notes from an external midi instrument, at least not now.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>I've noticed that sometimes the metronome button up/down position doesn't correctly indicate whether the metronome is turned on or off. Sometimes you have to fiddle with the button to make it work. I'll fix that in the next 1.1 release of Composer.

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

I will put a midi of something up on the Share Your Music site in the next few days.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>I'm looking forward to that!

Cheers
-- Mark

Hi Mark,

"I am inclined to do something opposite"

This sounds good.

"I probably need to have a few more improv sessions to find some new material, and perhaps to expand on the quiet, somewhat melodic idea at measure 110."

I really like that idea. Part of its effect derives from its contrast to what has gone before, so I'm not sure how it would work without that contrast each time it comes up. However, expansion could work nicely. Have you thought of perhaps expanding on it at each occurrence throughout the movement?

"I'd much rather spend 100 hours writing music... or music software... than doing calligraphy"

Exactly. Whenever I think how many years I was born before the PC, I wear my teeth down a bit more. On the other hand, my internal filters have been at work for a lot of years of a lot of listening, so I have a pretty good sense of what I want to do, in a basic, general sense, and when it comes to a particular composition, I find that I seldom have to re-do a passage more than once to get what I was after.

"I've noticed that sometimes the metronome button up/down position doesn't correctly indicate whether the metronome is turned on or off"

Does it matter? I recall seeing a comment, maybe by Sherry, that if it's off, the sheet music might be unplayable. Not sure I understand, but if on/off matters, I guess I should turn it back on????

I'm getting used to Composer gradually. It takes a while to learn to do some thing, like hitting P (I like to work in the dark, except for the screen which is above and doesn't light the keyboard) with my left hand while clicking the mouse. (Once I can find it with my left, it will be a lot better than moving my right hand to the keyboard and reaching across to click the mouse with my left LOL.) I make a lot of mistakes (like altering volume as well as tempo, somehow) and have to learn to correct them, which is good. The only thing I have having trouble with is that the screen jumps around a lot when I make changes, especially when I hit Ctrl Z, when it sometimes goes to the previous screen, so it is sometimes hard to keep my place and concentration. I assume that I have something set wrong, either in Composer or Windows, but I have no idea what it may be yet.

I'll get around to doing the registration thing before long.

all best,
mgj

Morning Sherry,

You're right; that would be fantastic. But I guess I needn't worry, so I won't, at least until when/if I get an external keyboard. Learning to use a new to me) program provides enough to fill the brain, and then some.

I have a question for you. I listened (several times) to the Communion Aires, particularly struck by the sound of the flute. Did you get it by setting it up yourself?

best,
mgj

Hello M.G.,

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

I'm getting used to Composer gradually. It takes a while to learn to do some thing, like hitting P (I like to work in the dark, except for the screen which is above and doesn't light the keyboard) with my left hand while clicking the mouse. (Once I can find it with my left, it will be a lot better than moving my right hand to the keyboard and reaching across to click the mouse with my left LOL.) I make a lot of mistakes (like altering volume as well as tempo, somehow) and have to learn to correct them, which is good. The only thing I have having trouble with is that the screen jumps around a lot when I make changes, especially when I hit Ctrl Z, when it sometimes goes to the previous screen, so it is sometimes hard to keep my place and concentration. I assume that I have something set wrong, either in Composer or Windows, but I have no idea what it may be yet.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>Let's continue a conversation about these usability issues in some other posts, if you're interested. For example, I recommend that you start a new thread under: Notation Software Support Forum » Creating, Opening, Transcribing, Printing, Playing, and Saving Songs » Playing the Song.

Cheers
-- Mark

Hi,

You show what you intended to very good effect. That is the closest to a flute sound I've heard in midi. The tounging is not so apparent and the timbre much less mechanical. It is a beautiful sound, more luminescent, I think, than a solo flute would produce in a concert hall, but not perhaps in a smaller setting.

I don't know about it being too fast. It will be interesting to hear what you do with it. Have you thought of tinkering with note velocity? perhaps making the flute more prominent in the passage where you use the orchestral hit?

It's a haunting melody, which I know I've heard, but don't know when or where, and almost certainly not as beautifully rendered. It would work well in a long piece for singer and orchestra that is fermenting in my head.

best,
mgj

Good evening Sherry,

I wondered if it were your melody. That it is explains why I couldn't place it. Yes, I would like to use it, and thank you for your kind permission, but will only if you repeat the permission after actually hearing something...which you should be able to do next week, hopefully. I, too, am an organization freak. Or, more exactly, I know I should be, but am egregiously poor at it, so all the ideas, drafts, and revisions of anything I've written wind up in a single folder, rather than the latest versions in one and the rest in a "history" sub-folder. But I'll sort through things this weekend.

The idea something I've heard before has "bubbled to the surface" (good way to put it) occurs to me every time I write something. What starts as an idea that seems completely new and even sometimes not particularly melodious, after I have worked on it, and therefore heard many times, comes to sound like something I MUST have heard at some time in the past. That feeling extends to the instrumentation, even.
Fortunately, I like to play with things I KNOW I've heard, so a lot of what I do combines original and borrowed, or the suggestion of, or a phrase from something borrowed. The second movement of a piano concerto, for instance, uses an old Celtic tune as the main theme and what may sound original, but is derived from it, in the middle section. (I'll bet you are familiar with the song.)

It was the .not file of the aire that I listened to. When I suggested tinkering a bit, I was actually thinking of something I read in an orchestration text about 50 years ago--that the flute, in the first octave of its range, is too weak to be a solo instrument, unless all other instruments are considerably subdued.

When you refer to the whistle, is it the same as or like the tin whistle? I got one for my birthday 15 or so years ago and wore it out. It was great, great fun, but I never would have been able to produce anything like the sound of your piece.

all best,
mgj

Mark, for goodness' sake get the piece written out fully - it has some really good ideas in it - I am impressed by the bridge sections you have employed, and, yes the Prok influence is there in the rhythmic vitality as well as in the harmony. I particularly like your cadences which could be by P himself. Around 2 mins 58 secs to the 3 mins 20 bit, I like the piece even more - not sure about the glissando - not really need at that point. 3' 57" onwards is very good, and the movement to different keys is nice. 4' 30" is confusing, musically, perhaps more needs to be done in a development section there.

Did think that 5' to 5' 10" had lost it's way, but then the last few bars made more sense again. think about how it ended - would P have finished it quite like that? I think a more formal cadence (NOT a V-I, by any means, but something slightly more unusual) would do the trick. Nice and interesting. One suggestion - have a more clearly defined second subject in the middle of the piece - too much similarity can become just a little boring, and you clearly have the ability to create an interesting middle section. Well done though!

(Apologies - I wrote the above as I was listening to the piece - hope some of it makes sense)

----Peter

Hello Peter,

It was fun to read your review of this "coming out" piece. I haven't listened to it since last summer when I improvised it and started a first pass at quantizing the notated rhythms (but without quantizing the performed rhythms).

That your comments identify minute-second locations in the piece has inspired me to plan a new MidiNotate option that will show this information somehow. I had to play the whole piece to find out where the minute-second locations were that you referred to.

Your last suggestion joins a consensus that others and myself have about this improvisation: <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

One suggestion - have a more clearly defined second subject in the middle of the piece - too much similarity can become just a little boring, and you clearly have the ability to create an interesting middle section.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>In general, when I improvise alone (I never improvise in front of others) I often beat a theme to death, trying out just incremental variations on it to hear what works better or not. I quite agree with the consensus here that the main bouncy theme is played too much without enough variation, and the second less bouncy theme was barely given a chance. That second theme was more elusive for me-- it flew by my fingers before I got the idea solidly in my poor musical memory, so that I was barely able to recall it briefly again later in the improvisation.

This is what excites me, though, about having MidiNotate Composer at my disposal as a tool for composing through improvising... if I'll ever have enough time away from work to actually enjoy using it. In decades past, I tried recording improvisations to then use the material for compositions, but this never worked for me. I was just too lousy at musical dictation (for others reading this, that means manually transcribing what one hears to notes on a score). Now, I can set MidiNotate Composre's recorder to capture whatever I improvise, good or bad, and then quantize the notation (a feature mostly implemented but not yet available in the current version), and then cut and paste and mold the improvisation into a real composition. This has always been the essence of my dream for a music composition tool.

I realize that the vast majority of MidiNotate Composer users will have other ways of composing than what I've described above. MidiNotate Composer users have shown me that they want many different ways of entering notes-- with the mouse, step-time, sequential note entry, singing (voice recording is not yet supported). But composing through improvising is the way I work. Music is real-time. For me, I can work out some of elements of a composition only in real-time with my fingers going away at the piano. I wish I could just sit back and make music in my ears and then write down what I heard. But, sigh, I lack that gift and/or possibly learned skill.

I don't know when I'll get back to this improvisation, if ever. Lately, I've been improvising in much more of a Bartok style; and I have been experimenting with fairly frequent bold, rubato tempo changes, to stretch my thinking about tempo.

Cheers
-- Mark